The painstaking process of finding the facts which fit our Edward Atkins

 PHOTO: Pioneers cemetery in Wirrabarra Forest. Is Edward Atkins buried here in an unmarked grave.

I know I have said this before but ancestry research is painfully slow most of the time when the few facts are  often buried in a growing pile of maybes, possibilities, ifs and buts!

  With recent information raising the possibility that some of the information we have gathered about Edward Atkins may not in fact be 'ours' as in, there were no doubt more than one Edward Atkins in the mid-north and Clare Valley during our time-frame and we have have gathered up some 'facts' which do not belong to our Edward. Herein begins the real work of connecting the facts so we know what is absolute and what remains as likely or merely possible.

 The facts we have are that Edward Atkins married Elizabeth Mashford Lewis in Penwortham Church, Clare Valley in 1857.  We know that Edward gave his father's name as Joseph on his marriage certificate. We know they had three children, Elizabeth, Mary and James. In fact Edward and Elizabeth are listed as living in Wirrabarra Forest and he is named as a blacksmith in historical records.

 We know when Elizabeth Mashford Atkins died in Gladstone in 1908 but we have no death certificate for Edward. In terms of absolute facts these are the only absolute facts that we have. We have no confirmed record of when Edward arrived in South Australia, where he was from, where or when he died and if he had been married before Elizabeth.

 Everything else comes into the realm of being likely or possible. In this category comes the meaning of the name Haynes - the middle name given to the first-born son of Edward and Elizabeth. This name clearly means something because James passed it on to his first-born son. The fact that Elizabeth did not give this name to any of her sons by Peter Lewis suggests that the Haynes name is connected with the Atkins family.

 Woven around these few 'facts' there are many highly likely possibilities but, for the moment, they remain only that. As a follow-on from the recent 'convict connection,' Kylie has done some more research and some more pondering and she wrote:

I have had contact with Cherrielee who did the convict record info.  I made contact through ancestry.com  after finding another tree with Robert as Edward’s father.  Cherrielee got the father Robert from the Tasmanian convict record.  I have had a really good look at that Edward and he could not be the same Edward as the one that had Emily Puddy.  He was in England during the conception of a couple of the children, and would have remained as a convict until  1856, after Emily was born in 1854.  He married in Tasmania and didn’t move to South Australia until after Elizabeth’s children were all born.

 So that doesn’t change anything for us and we are still looking for the children and grandchildren to match up.  Good luck Luke as I have failed to find any thing more to help us.

Cherrielee did raise the possibility of the two families being unrelated.  I have been exploring this.  Wirrabara is the reason we jumped on it, but by 1890 there were quite a few Atkins in the area and Edward is such a common name.  He was with Emily Puddy when he died and there is no link with our family.

What links the two families.

·         The marriage certificates of both Hannah and Elizabeth show Edward as a Blacksmith, but that was a very common occupation.

 ·          It appears the children of Hannah and Edward stopped in about 1854, leaving time for Hannah to die and Edward to remarry.

 ·         Location – we know our Edward was in the Wirrabara in the 1850’s.

 ·         The son, Joseph, is our Edward’s father’s name.  But it is a common name too and Henry was his first son, often the one named after the father.

 ·         This would often be enough proof to consider the link proved.

The against side is

 ·         There is circumstantial evidence between them but I can think of no facts to link them.

 ·         We have found no link between the children of the two families.

 ·         Year of birth from death notice is 1807, year of birth from marriage to Elizabeth is 1813.  Of course either one or both could be wrong, close enough is good enough sometimes.

 ·         Assuming Haynes is Edward’s mother’s name:  If Edward wanted to use his mother’s name, Haynes, why didn’t he, he had two chances with Henry and Joseph.  It really does look like James is his first son.  This makes more sense if there is two Edwards.

 ·         By 1891 our family was in Gladstone.

 ·         The death notice does not appear to include our family.  It is more likely that results from a different Edward than it is a family rift.

 ·         Location – the death notice gives his location as his son-in-law’s place, it in no way indicates his long term residence in Wirrabara, or that he lived there for any reason other than living with his daughter.

 ·         Despite the knowledge of a previous marriage, there was no knowledge of a bunch of children.

 The conclusion I have come to is that it is possible that we are looking at two different Edward Atkins who are in no way related.   If it is two different Edwards that means we don’t have a county for our Edward, that came from the death notice.  It also means that we can look further than 1856 for Hannah’s death.  A bit more to consider as we keep searching.  If your discovery of the Gloucestershire of the Anne Haynes and Edward Atkins matches, Ros,  it will kill any doubt, but I do think we need to keep an open mind on this for now.

PHOTO: Bullocks hauling timber in Wirrabarra Forest at the turn of the 19th century.

All of which provided food for thought before my response:

There may well be two Edwards but I think we always knew that was possible. Just to clarify my position. When I write up the blog I am merely recording the process of research and I don't have a fixed opinion as I do say from time to time. Our Edward is still in the realm of ifs, buts, maybes and possibilities.

I am sure there were other Edward Atkins.... I think there was one in Burra... around the same time but we do have an historical note which mentions Edward and Elizabeth and the birth of their daughters in Wirrabarra Forest. We also have a record of Edward later being a shepherd at the station where Emily Puddy was married. I think this is fairly solid as a clue that our Edward is her Edward. But of course, there could have been two in the area. Strange things happen.

 re: sons with Hannah. Since we are not sure if the birth records we have are for our Edward Atkins it is possible that he and Hannah only had daughters or that there was a son called Joseph who died. However, Edward's son by Elizabeth did not take his father's name either.... he was called James. And James did not call any of his sons Edward although one of his sons had the middle name of Joseph.

 This could indicate a falling out between James and his father and perhaps there had been a falling out with Edward and his father... such 'trails' are common in families.

 Just to go through some of your points as I think it through:

What links the two families.

 ·         The marriage certificates of both Hannah and Elizabeth show Edward as a Blacksmith, but that was a very common occupation. (Yes, but Edward working as a shepherd on Booleroo Station is a solid clue)

·          It appears the children of Hannah and Edward stopped in about 1854, leaving time for Hannah to die and Edward to remarry. (It is always possible she died in childbirth and that could have been as late as six months before Edward married Elizabeth).

·         Location – we know our Edward was in the Wirrabara in the 1850’s. (And we know he worked at Booleroo Station in the 1870's)

·         The son, Joseph, is our Edward’s father’s name.  But it is a common name too and Henry was his first son, often the one named after the father. (Except Edward and Elizabeth did not give their son the name Joseph and James Haynes Atkins did not give his first-born son the name Edward.)

·         This would often be enough proof to consider the link proved.

 The against side is

 ·         There is circumstantial evidence between them but I can think of no facts to link them.

·         We have found no link between the children of the two families.(True. The strongest link is Emily and Margaret being married at the station where Edward worked as a shepherd in later life).

·         Year of birth from death notice is 1807, year of birth from marriage to Elizabeth is 1813.  Of course either one or both could be wrong, close enough is good enough sometimes.

·         Assuming Haynes is Edward’s mother’s name:  If Edward wanted to use his mother’s name, Haynes, why didn’t he, he had two chances with Henry and Joseph.  It really does look like James is his first son.  This makes more sense if there is two Edwards. (Unless, as is often the way with this, there was a son born of whom we do not know. )

·         By 1891 our family was in Gladstone. (We know Elizabeth was. I don't think we have any evidence that Edward was.)

·         The death notice does not appear to include our family.  It is more likely that results from a different Edward than it is a family rift. (I feel it could be either. )

·         Location – the death notice gives his location as his son-in-law’s place, it in no way indicates his long term residence in Wirrabara, or that he lived there for any reason other than living with his daughter. (Quite right)

·         Despite the knowledge of a previous marriage, there was no knowledge of a bunch of children. (I don't know about Luke but my family was not aware of any previous marriage for Edward Atkins. I first heard this through Luke's research.)

The conclusion I have come to is that it is possible that we are looking at two different Edward Atkins who are in no way related.   If it is two different Edwards that means we don’t have a county for our Edward, that came from the death notice.  It also means that we can look further than 1856 for Hannah’s death.  A bit more to consider as we keep searching.  If your discovery of the Gloucestershire of the Anne Haynes and Edward Atkins matches, Ros,  it will kill any doubt, but I do think we need to keep an open mind on this for now. (I think this is a sound and sensible conclusion and yes, I think seeing what we can find about an Atkins/Haynes connection is the way to go.)

All of which took me back to some points Luke made some time ago which I think are worth reviewing at this time:

I do believe there was a break down in the marriage of Edward Atkins and Elizabeth Mashford. I cannot prove it with evidence, but I think there are enough clues to go by that leans towards a possible break down. The clues isolated by themselves do not add up to a breakdown in the marriage, but added together, I believe  add weight to the argument that there may have been a breakdown in the marriage.

     Mary Atkins gave birth to her first child Edward Atkins at Gladstone in 1877 and not at Wirrabara where Edward Atkins was living.(We think) Did Mary Atkins and her mother leave Edward Atkins by 1877?

     John Lewis died at his mother’s residence at Gladstone in 1888. Thus Elizabeth Atkins had her own home separated from her husband.[1] It is known that in 1875[2] she signed over some land in Gladstone to her son George Lewis so she may have been a woman with financial means and could have lived in her own home in Gladstone separated from her husband.

      Mary Atkins married Charlie Ross in 1888 she left her father’s name out of her marriage certificate. Her father was alive. (We think) at the time of his daughter’s marriage so this could be a clear indication that Mary Ross nee Atkins had disowned her own .

     Not one of Edward Atkins’ children from Elizabeth Mashford or his wife placed an obituary in the papers for Edward Atkins. (This is important because even if the death notice we think is for our Edward were not to be, the fact is that while Mary Atkins Ross put in a death notice for her mother, no-one seems to have done it for Edward Atkins. Even if the notice we have is our Edward, his family by Elizabeth are not involved by the look of it.)

     No story has ever passed down my family tree that Edward Atkins had any other children except Elizabeth, Mary and James. The story of Elizabeth Mashford's first marriage was passed down as family history which included George Lewis, but never any of the missing daughters. (And again, perhaps this is a clue that the Edward Atkins of the death notice and hordes of grandchildren is not our Edward. Although my family never talked about the Lewis children despite my discovering in the last two years that George Lewis was a witness at the marriage of Mary Atkins to Charlie Ross)

 So here we are, thinking we had come so far and now not sure. It may not be Gloucestershire which makes the Haynes/Atkins link in that county possibly pointless but it remains something which needs to be checked.  No wonder ancestry research takes years. I am feeling we are at a point where we need a stroke of good luck to lurch things forward. Here's hoping.

Are the Atkins's descended from gypsies?

While doing a search on the Atkins's of Gloucestershire I came across a William Atkins listed as a Hawker on the Romany/Gypsy website. He was aged 25 and listed in the 1841 Census as born in Gloucestershire, no address, Lamb Street, Clifton.

He was born 1816, within nine years of the birth of Edward Atkins depending on which age for him is correct, given differences between the age he put when he married Elizabeth and the age of 84 as recorded on his death notice in 1891.

It's a long shot, as all such things are but given that we have no place to begin our search for the family of Edward Atkins this might be as good a place to start as any.


It would be so much easier if we had some exotic christian names in our Atkins family like Jeremiah or Engelbert or something less common than Edward or Joseph and yet common seems to be what my family does best of all, despite the lingering stories about a noble connection for Elizabeth Mashford. So far, trawling back through the generations and nearly two hundred years we are in the main, bogstandard ordinary and poor, poor, poor.  I should be grateful, and I am, that recent generations have been able to drag themselves up by the bootstraps and achieve standards of living which my ancestors would have considered rich beyond measure.

And I still have to trace  the Joseph Atkins who  married Ann Hai(y)nes in Cirencester, Gloucestershire on August 14, 1809. Interestingly, very interestingly in fact I have found the name Ann Haynes on the same Romany site where I spotted William Atkins. She is listed in the 1881 census of Hawkers born in Gloucestershire: Ann Haynes, Bc 1801 St George, Gloucestershire, England Inmate Stapleton, Gloucestershir.  This Ann Haynes is not likely to be the one marrying Joseph Atkins because she is too young, but there is every chance she is a relation.

The Haynes' are listed as gypsy basketmakers and the Stapleton Workhouse, which I believe is close to both Clifton and Cirencester, is likely to be where Ann was an inmate.

In an extract from The National Gazetteer, 1868:
"STAPLETON, a parish in the hundred of Barton Regis, county Gloucester, 2 miles N.E. of Bristol, of which it may be considered a suburb. The Midland and the Bristol and South Wales Union railways have stations here. This parish is situated at the north-western angle of the South Gloucester and Somerset coalfield, and is bounded on the N. by a range of hills 200 feet high, to which elevation the strata of the coal measures has been lifted up by a mass of millstone grit. It is traversed by the river Frome flowing through a glen, and contains the villages of Stapleton and Fishponds. The hat manufacture formerly carried on has declined, but there is a flock manufactory, coal mines, and stone quarries. The palace of the Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol, the diocesan training institution for National schoolmistresses, and the Clifton union workhouse, &c., are in this parish.

In a 1797 report on the poor in England, Stapleton was thus described:

STAPLETON lies about two miles north-east of Bristol, and has 1,377 inhabitants. There are 254 houses; 84 pay tax, 170 exempt so that it appears there is very little more than 5 and two-fifth persons to a house. Day labourers earn from 8s. to 10s. 6d. a week. Provisions are purchased in Bristol market. Farms are small and chiefly pasture. The common was enclosed in 1783, when half an acre was allotted to each cottage. There is now no wasteland, and labourers find great difficulty in getting habitations, and when anxious to set up house have to migrate to other parishes. Land lets at from £2 to £3 an acre. Some of the Poor are maintained at home, some in the Workhouse. Bill of fare in the Workhouse—Breakfast—Sunday—6 oz. of bread, 1oz. butter, and beer; other days—Broth. Dinner—Sunday—Boiled beef, potatoes, bread and small beer; Monday, Wednesday, Saturday—6oz. of bread, ½oz. of cheese, and beer; Tuesday, Thursday—Boiled beef, potatoes or carrots, and beer ; Friday—Milk broth or rice. Supper, every day—Bread and cheese and small beer. The children's allowance of bread at dinner is 4oz. On Christmas Day and Whit Sunday the dinner is baked veal and plum pudding. There are in the house 3 men, 5 women, 5 children. In 1795, 5 men, 7 women, 8 children. The children are employed in spinning flax and hemp, but their earnings are very inconsiderable. 

All of which sounds a far cry from what my ancestors may have experienced as gypsies, if indeed the Atkins and Haynes families listed on the Romany records are indeed mine. Then again, no doubt it was better than starving to death in the hedegrow or freezing to death on a cobbled street in winter.

In the 1841 census of Gloucestershire Hawkers there is:

Charles Haynes aged 50 born circa 1791 Licensed Hawker born in county No address Northleach Northleach & Stow On The Wold
So along with a William Atkins, gypsy hawker of no address, we have a Charles Haynes, gypsy hawker, of no address.  The interesting thing for me is that these are two names which are joined together in my family. Gloucestershire is big, but not that big when you reduce names to one source, i.e. Romanies.

In the 1881 census of Bristol City Workhouse, Stapleton inmates are listed:

Elizabeth ATKINS

U

57

F

Inmate

Domestic Servant

Bristol

Harriet HAYNES	U	56	F	Inmate	Domestic Servant	Imbecile

In the late 19th century imbecile was a term used to describe the uneducated, feeble-minded and mentally ill. If Harriet had worked as a domestic servant then she could not have been too much of an imbecile, but perhaps after the drudgery of probably fifty years of virtual slavery, she had become a tad feeble-minded.

Ann Haynes is not listed here but she may well have been at the Clifton Union Workhouse and with a bit more searching, there she is at Barton Regis Union Workhouse, in the Clifton section:

Ann HAYNES

W

80

F

Inmate

Hawker

St George, Gloucester

The Clifton Workhouse (map of site above)was known as Barton Regis from 1877 and has this excerpt regarding it in the 1777 parliamentary report:


The Poor of the out-parishes of St. Philip and Jacob, and of St. George, which contain about 16,000 inhabitants, are partly relieved at home, and partly in a Workhouse in which there are at present 85 persons. The number of out Poor is about 200. It is singular that here it is thought most beneficial to the parishes to maintain the Poor at home, and that the Poor want to get into the house. It is pleasantly situated and appears to be clean and comfortable. There are 2, or 3 beds of flocks and feathers in each room. Bill of fare in the Workhouse: Breakfast—every day, milk pottage. Dinner—Sunday, Thursday, bread and cheese; Monday, rice milk; Tuesday, Friday, pease soup; Wednesday and Saturday, pickled beef and vegetables. Supper—every day, bread and cheese or butter. 3 pints of beer are allowed to each person on meat days, and a quart on other days. One lb. of bread is given out daily and 9oz. of cheese every week. Once a month 12lbs. of butter are distributed, and at particular seasons better fare is provided, more especially for the sick.

Ages in the workhouse records range from babies to people in their 90's... a collection of human misery which was part and parcel of life in the 19th century and before. There is poor and there is workhouse poor and the former is vastly preferable to the latter.

I have other ancestors on my mother's side who spent time in the workhouse and where some died as children and it was a life so bleak as to be almost unbearable. Perhaps life in the new colony of South Australia, despite struggle and poverty was better than anything they had ever experienced. There is no doubt it offered opportunities which could never be more than dreams back home in England.

Both Haynes and Atkins are listed as surnames in the Gypsy Surname Index of Great Britain.

So, at this point of time I have a connection between Atkins and Haynes (the mysterious middle name given to Edward Atkins's son by Elizabeth Mashford Lewis and then handed down by James Haynes Atkins to his oldest son and third child, Haynes Mashford Atkins, who was born July 15, 1890, at Booyoolie Est. Near Gladstone, South Australia.

We also have a link between a Joseph Atkins (the name of Edward's father) and a mother called Ann Haynes in the right time-frame for the birth of my ancestor. And it is all in Gloucestershire.

Given the nomadic, albeit gypsy nature of my life there would be something satisfying in discovering a Romany connection in the Atkins line.

The best laid plans of ancestry researchers can easily go astray...

There we were thinking we had made some progress and now we are not sure. A little spanner of 'fact' has been thrown into the works.

Luke wrote today:

I am now totally confused I have just found this on a website. What do you think?  Do we have the wrong missing daughters for Edward Atkins after all the work that has been done or could the Edward Atkins that they are talking about below is the right one, but for some reason they have his father name wrong and his date of birth wrong? Edward Atkins could not have come out to Van Diemen's Land in 1851. I am confused.   

www.convictrecords.com.au/contributions/2 - 

 

Edward Atkins

Edward Atkins, one of 250 convicts transported on the Lady Kennaway, 30 January 1851

Known aliases: 
none
Convicted at: 
Convicted at Surrey, Newington Quarter Sessions for a term of 7 years on 05 February 1849
Sentence term: 
7 years
Ship name: 
Lady Kennaway
Departure date: 
30th January, 1851
Place of arrival: 
Van Diemen's Land
Source: 
Australian Joint Copying Project. Microfilm Roll 92, Class and Piece Number HO11/17, Page Number 19 (12)
This record is one of the entries in the British convict transportation registers 1787-1867 database compiled by State Library of Queensland from British Home Office (HO) records which are available on microfilm as part of the Australian Joint Copying Project.

Community Contributions

Cherrielee (nee Costin) Sherriff on 11th June, 2011 wrote:

Edward Atkins was born abt 1822, his father was Robert Atkins, he married and had a daughter Emily Atkins born approx 1854 and we know or a sister, Margaret, Sarah and Ann, they were born on Boolero Station in Mid north South Australia. Emily married Edward Prentice Puddy in 1872, they had Robert Puddy born Wirrabara 1879 who married Alice Sarah Hancock in Bagor SA 1905, they had 9 children, one of which is my grandmother. Ruby Puddy married John F Costin.

Oops! Confused is not the word.  I responded:

I think it is clear that someone has it wrong and I think we need to get in touch with this person and find out all she knows.

Our Edward could not have arrived in 1851.... or could he? We have the missing years from 1843-1857 but we also have births during that time. We think.

There is as good a chance that Cherrielee has the 'sisters' of Emily Atkins Puddy wrong and Emily is not in fact ours and the others are not hers. What we need to do is find out more about this Edward Atkins. He must have been released early.

It is perfectly possible that he returned to England prior to 1849, got into trouble and was sentenced and sent back in 1851. Hannah may still have been alive... the mother of Emily Atkins Puddy is therefore important. If we can find the English court records it should say where he was from. If he was from Gloucestershire it may still be our Edward... if not, it is not. 

What a mystery but also what an opportunity.

I then began a search myself to see what I could find and found an email address for a Bob Atkins which triggered one of a multitude of memories regarding this research that I had been in touch with him before. A search of my ancestry emails revealed that I had. We had however decided that the time-line of his Edward did not fit and stopped our correpondence about 12 months ago. But now I am not so sure.

I have written to Bob Atkins as follows: 

Hi Bob,

Well, I am back again.. I just sent a message on the RootsWeb site and then thought: I am sure I have been in touch with a Robert Atkins and so searched my mail and there you were.

My fellow family researcher, Luke Scane Harris came across this which led me back to you:

Cherrielee (nee Costin) Sherriff on 11th June, 2011 wrote:

Edward Atkins was born abt 1822, his father was Robert Atkins, he married and had a daughter Emily Atkins born approx 1854 and we know or a sister, Margaret, Sarah and Ann, they were born on Boolero Station in Mid north South Australia. Emily married Edward Prentice Puddy in 1872, they had Robert Puddy born Wirrabara 1879 who married Alice Sarah Hancock in Bagor SA 1905, they had 9 children, one of which is my grandmother. Ruby Puddy married John F Costin

In the past few months we have established believable links between Emily Puddy and the Margaret, Sarah and Ann to whom Cherrielee refers. What throws us with this is Edward's father's name being given as Robert and we have Joseph on his marriage certificate to our ancestor, Elizabeth Mashford Lewis, but beyond that there is also the possibility that we might be talking about the same Edward. If your Edward is from Gloucestershire it makes it even more likely. It is also conceivable that his father was called Joseph and known as Robert but a Gloucestershire link with your Edward would be a more substantial clue. Your Edward marrying a Hannah would be even better!

At this point it is a mystery but one we would like to solve.

It is a slim chance but our Edward married Hannah McLeod in Adelaide in 1843 and then disappears pretty much until 1857 when he married Elizabeth. We had wondered if he went back to England and married again after Hannah's death because we now have his death certificate, which omits mention of his still living wife, and we have reason to believe omits mention of his three children by her but he has left behind a large family. However, we now also have birth records in the church and area where our Edward was living which suggest that Hannah McLeod may have still been alive.

Atkins.-On the 15^th November, 1891 at the residence of his son-in-law, Whyte Park, Wirrabara, Edward Atkins, aged 84 years. A colonist of over 50 years, leaving 1 son, 5 daughters, 47

grandchildren and 3 greatgrandchildren to mourn their loss. Gloucestershire papers please copy”

 I have recorded our research to date on my blog : http://roslyn-ross.blogspot.com/

We may have been completely on the wrong track but it is conceivable that our Edward did go back to England, got into trouble and was transported and any light you may shed on the origin and exploits of your Edward will help us ascertain if we have collected relatives which are not ours to collect.

It is a fascinating process Bob. I look forward to hearing from you.

I am beginning to think that there are more Edward Atkins's than one might expect.... the John Smith perhaps of ancestry research! Confused is not the word. It was all looking so good and now it may well have gone to hell in an ancestral basket!

But Kylie as usual has some pertinent points which are worth considering:

Hi folks

I have come across an Edward Atkins from Tasmania before.  I suspect he is the father of Thomas Atkins who married Kate Riechel in Adelaide, Thomas was born in 1866 in Tasmania.   I think this Edward stayed in Tasmania for a while so I think that excludes our Edward.

A few other problems, Edward was a colonist of 50 years at his death in 1891.  That means he arrived by 1841.  He was married in 1843 and has a fairly steady production of children, some of which we know were born in Clare.  There is no time for him to return to England, get arrested in Feb 1849 and shipped out in Jan 1851, during this time he was producing children in South Australia with Hannah.

It would be interesting to know where she got father Robert from.   We have Edward’s father as Joseph from Elizabeth Mashford’s marriage cert.  If Cherrielee is a decendant from the first marriage she may not have accessed that record and know his father’s name, or she may have a record that shows her ancestor was Robert, and there is two Edwards. 

What if the death notice is not our Edward, perhaps there was two.  That would solve the problem of why Elizabeth and perhaps all her children were ignored.  He would have been about 53 when he married her if the age at death is correct, not 44 per the marriage certificate  You both knew of Elizabeth’s children from her first marriage but nothing of Edward’s.  We only went searching for more children after the death notice if I remember correctly.   I would have to go back and see what other tie ins there are between the two marriages.  Either way it is unlikely that the Edward that fathered Emily Puddy is the same as the convict Edward as he appears to be younger, have stayed in Tasmania for many years, been in jail for two years whilst the children were being born. 

There are so few records of Edward that it is hard find out very much at all.  I don’t think this record adds anything to what we know so far.

I am not sure about Luke but in fact my side of the family did not know about Elizabeth's children by Peter Lewis... or rather, did not talk about them although clearly the Atkins/Lewis children kept in some sort of contact because Elizabeth was nursing John Lewis in Gladstone before his death. and George Lewis was a witness at the marriage of Mary Atkins to Charlie Ross.

A Devon detour once again as we wander the lanes of the past... literally as well as metaphorically

There is no doubt I am finding it much easier to find out about my English relatives than my Greek, hence this blog/book, while being a search for Charlie Ross and his Greek family has turned out to be more an exploration of the family of Charlie's wife, Mary Atkins Ross. 

However, I choose to see that as a temporary digression. It is a process and I know far more of my ancestry than I did when I began. 

One should be grateful in ancestry research for any progress at all. Another family researcher, albeit distantly related, has gotten in touch with me. Geoff Bremble is also related to the Labett family and he wrote:

I am a member of the Devon Family History Society and saw your entry of interest as being the family Labett. My wife's grandmother was Rosina Agnes Labett born in Portsmouth and married to Albert Stribley whose family was from Padstow in Cornwall ( see attached Family Tree). I have various copies of census returns and a couple of BMD's which I would be happy to share with you.

I live near Oxford but am visiting Devon next week and will hopefully be going to the Family History Centre in Exeter and would be happy to look up "stuff" for you if you are interested. As a consequence of the villages you list in your entry I intend visiting them so if you would like photo's from there let me know.

PS My wife was born in Sydney, but that's a different story!!

And of course there is only one answer to that - yes please. Since then Geoff has been true to his word and has sent me a raft of photographs of our family's haunts and the following:

Dear Ros

Further to my visit to the SW England I attach some photographs as follows:

Title	Location
All Saints Church, Church interior, Kings Arms	Winkleigh
St Matthew’s Church, Church interior	Coldridge
All Saints Church, Church interior, Fox and Hounds	Eggesford
St Bartholomew Church, Church interior	Nymett Rowland

Winkleigh is a substantial and picturesque village with a pub. Church pictured above, town immediately above and church interior below.

 And on to Eggesford:

Eggesford – (church interior above and village below)  There is no discernible centre, it is just a few scattered homes and farms set in an open gentle landscape.

Coldridge – This comprises a ribbon of homes set, as the name suggests, on a ridge and is subject to the winds that seem to blow continuously in this part of England. It is set in a rolling landscape and approached by steep narrow lanes.

Nymett Rowland (church interior immediately above and church at top) – This again has no obvious village centre and the church is set against a largish farm.

 

As regards more information on the Labetts. I am sending you, by snail mail, copies of the indexes of BMD parish records from the Devon FHC. In order to see the transcripts on microfiche one has to visit either the Devon Records office or the West Country Studies Centre both of which are in Exeter. Alternatively the FHC can do a search for you, info on this is on the sheets I am sending you. As you are probably aware not all records have been transcribed or indexed, that’s when life gets difficult !!!

Incidentally when talking to the FHC archivist about how the Labetts might have come to SW England she suggested that they might have been French naval officers captured at the Battle of Trafalgar who were imprisoned on Dartmoor some of whom might have remained and married local women. Apparently these can be viewed at the Devon Prison Museum records in Princetown under post Trafalgar records. However as there seems to be Labbetts that predate the battle they must have arrived a lot earlier. Do you have any ideas?

I can't say I do have any ideas but good all the same to have some thoughts on the Labbetts and the origin of the family and the name.  What is interesting is that there is some suggestion that the Mashfords also originated in France and my maternal grandfather's name, Belchamber, is also said to be of French origin. 

I am hoping I have the right captions with the right photos given the similarity of church interiors. However, these photographs are of churches where Labbet and no doubt Mashford and Cann ancestors would have been christened, married and buried. 

And it seems only right to include a photograph (above) of St. Mark's Church in Penwortham, Clare Valley where Elizabeth Mashford married Edward Atkins. 

And  a photograph (above) of St. Alban's Church, Gladstone, taken in 1908, where Mary Atkins married Charlie Ross in 1888. A fire later destroyed records and much of the church. 

Edward Atkins' ever expanding family!

Having taken a detour away from the focus of my ancestry research on Charlie Ross ... and I will get back to him ...I now find, with the help of fellow family researchers, more relatives than one could poke a stick at!

There is so much assumption in ancestry research that one needs to remain aware that assumption is only ever assumption and possibilities beyond imagining may exist.

Early on the assumption was that Edward Atkins lost his wife Hannah McLeod shortly after marriage and then did not remarry until 10 or 12 years later when Elizabeth Mashford Lewis came into his life. The death notice for Edward listing countless grand-children raised questions about this because, either he and Hannah had more children, which we now know they did, or he married again after her death, which does not seem likely.

A response from the Clare Historical Society following a query from Luke has come up with the following information:

We have studied your letter on the Atkins family with much interest. You have certainly put a lot of work into the research so far.

I have found 3 baptisms in the St Barnabas Church of England, Clare register namely:

Child - no name - baptised in 1850 - child of Edward and Anne Atkins (could be Sarah)

Joseph son of Edward & Hannah Atkins baptised in 1851

and Emily daughter of the above 2 people in 1854.

You do not mention Joseph so I thought he may have died as a baby/child but could not find a record. St Barnabas and St Mark's at Penwortham are in the same parish.

I will get on to your requets ASAP.

Regards, Val for CRHG

This suggests  that the Atkins/Mashford household was a crowded one with as many of seven children from Edward's first marriage, two surviving children from Elizabeth's marriage to Peter Lewis and then three more from the new marriage.

And as Luke wrote in response:

This is really great news. At least we now know that Hannah Atkins nee McLeod was still alive by 1854 living in the Clare Valley. One mystery, sort of solved, but we have another mystery called Joseph Atkins. Well we know that Edward Atkins’ father was called Joseph Atkins. So Edward Atkins named a son after his father called Joseph Atkins and his mother was Hannah Atkins. 

However, did he die as a child? Or was the Obit that mentioned the 1 son was Joseph Atkins and not James Atkins? Were all the children of Elizabeth Atkins, Lewis nee Mashford cut out of the obit? I have had a quick look at trove and there is a person call Joseph Atkins living at Charleston which is near Lobethal, but there is no way to connect that Joseph Atkins to the child of Edward and Hannah Atkins. However, the mystery depends “Child no name baptised in 1850 child of Edward and Anne Atkins (could be Sarah). How many wives did dear old Edward have?  At least we now have Emily firmly in place. Her parents were Edward and Hannah Atkins. More research to do. I do love this.

Regards Luke

I am with Luke on this. It is exciting to make such progress. 

In response Kylie wrote:

Hi Luke

That’s great, Hannah and Ann can be interchangeable (like Mary and Polly) so it certainly looks to be the same mother.  I can find no Joseph dying, or getting married on ancestry.com.  We may find a burial for him, or he may have survived to make up the grandchildren numbers for us.  I have searched again for extra grandchildren but need at least two more.  I will keep looking. 

I was counting Elizabeth as the other daughter but there may be another daughter,  but Hannah must have died in 1856, at the latest,  Elizabeth and Edward married 12 Jan 1857, so we can assume Hannah was dead for a month or two at least. 

·       Henry Edward born 1843

·       Jane McKinnon nee Atkins 1845 

·       Margaret Newberry nee Atkins 1847 

·       Ann Pole nee Atkins 1847  (perhaps 1849)

·       Sarah Stacey nee Atkins 1850 

·       Joseph Atkins born 1851 

  Emily Puddy nee Atkins 1854

This shows that there is room for another child after Emily and perhaps between Joseph and Emily which supports the general theory of roughly one child (or twins) every two years. There are twins in the Atkins and Ross families so this is also a possibility.

So, the information to date is as follows as compiled by Luke:  

Edward Atkins married Hannah McLeod on the 3/1/1843. They had:-

·       Henry Edward born 1843 no record of death.  17 Nov 1843  May have been born in Adelaide.

·       Jane McKinnon nee Atkins 1845-1923 Born Clare.    Born 1850 according to death cert but that would mean she married at 17 not 22.  I think death cert may be wrong.  Otherwise she must be Sarah’s twin or there is not enough time for an extra child.  The Clare historical society would have picked up the two entries I am sure if they were twins.

·       Margaret Newberry nee Atkins 1847-1911 Born Clare. 

·       Ann Pole nee Atkins 1847-1889.  Death record suggests 1849 so may not be twins.

·       Child no name 1850 born Clare.  I think this is Sarah.  I think the entries would have been together if they were twins.

·       Sarah Stacey nee Atkins 1850-1896.

·       Joseph Atkins born 1851 parents Edward Atkins & Hannah Atkins born Clare no record of his death.

·       Emily Puddy nee Atkins 1854-1934 born at Clare parents Edward Atkins and Hannah Atkins.

Can we then assume if Henry Edward Atkins parents were Edward Atkins and Hannah Atkins, and if  Emily Atkins mother was Hannah Atkins and she was the last to be born then all the in between children’s mother was Hannah Atkins nee McLeod and all the children were born in Clare?  I definitely believe they were all Hannah’s children, Henry may have been born in Adelaide, the rest were probably born in Clare.

The Child with no name born 1850 at Clare and whose parents were Edward Atkins, mother Anne Atkins or Sarah Atkins or Hannah Atkins is the same person as Sarah Stacey because she was also born in 1850. Or were they twins and the child with no name was a still born?  I took it that the mother was Anne and the child was probably Sarah.  Babies were often christened quickly if they were weak (sometimes by the midwife) and named later.  I am not sure if stillborn babies were christened.

Also do I have the dates of birth right for Margaret Newberry nee Atkins 1847-1911 born at Clare and Ann Pole nee Atkins 1847-1889.  Both were born in 1847 could these be twins or do I have the dates wrong?   May be 1849 for Ann per the death records so possibly not twins.

 So, we now have more than enough children to provide the legions of grand-children mentioned at the death of Edward Atkins. Relatives aplenty to say the least although we have yet to solve the mystery of why his family with Elizabeth and Elizabeth herself were estranged from this first family.... but it certainly looks as if they were and that there are numbers enough from the first family to suggest they were not even listed in his death notice.