Considering again the Celtic Traveller or Gypsy connections for Edward Atkins

The possibility of a connection between Edward Atkins and gypsies came up some time ago but has re-surfaced and warrants further research.

I found in gypsy records the names Atkins and Haynes (Haines) which is a link to our family. At the time we did not have the information we now do, with a marriage between Joseph Atkins and Ann  Haines/Haynes, the parents of the convict Henry Edwin Atkins and probably the parents of our Edward Atkins with the two being one and the same man.

We now have more names associated with Joseph and Ann and more names associated with Edward and his two wives, Hannah McLeod and Elizabeth Mashford Lewis and many of those names are included in the list of Celtic Travellers, Gypsies, of Irish origin.

My first thought had been that gypsy meant Romany but of course it does not - the gypsies of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales were as often as not Celtic and known as 'tinkers' or travelling traders.

These are the connections to date where family names are listed on the Celtic Traveller register, starting with Henry Edwin Atkins. There are quite a few names which run through the three 'families' - Henry Edwin Atkins, Edwin Atkins, convict, (who did have HE tattooed on his arm and so is very likely to be the son of Joseph and Ann Haines Atkins) and our ancestor Edward Atkins.

Given the strength of connections between families and even more for those who emigrated to strange and distant lands, it is no stretch to say that these many name connections mean something. One could also argue, at a more esoteric level, that 'like attracts like' and even if there were not conscious connections there were unconscious connections.

While it might seem that there are a great many names on the Celtic Travellers Register, once studied, it is clear how many there are not. To find so many connections for Atkins is, to my mind, meaningful. Not that it means anything in concrete terms and is more curiosity than anything, but, at the same time, it is another linkage between our ancestor and the two men who are very likely to one and the same man.



Photo: Celtic travellers in the 19th century.Name connections for Henry Edwin Atkins, son of Joseph Atkins and Ann Haines.

ATKINS 1728 (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Edward Atkins, our ancestor, Joseph Atkins and his son Henry Edwin Atkins, Edwin Atkins, convict transported to Australia.

BOLTON/BOULTON(EN) 1873(Gypsies Passing Through)
Thomas Atkins and a Grace Boulton, possible parents for Joseph Atkins, were married on 3 June 1778 in Cirencester. Potential grandparents for Edward, Henry Edwin and Edwin Atkins.

HAINES (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Ann Haines/Haynes married Joseph Atkins and is the mother of Henry Edwin Atkins, born January 22, 1812 Cirencester. She is the potential mother of Edwin Atkins, convict and Edward Atkins, ancestor, both born 1812 Gloucestershire.

HAYNES (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Variation of the spelling of Haines.

HOLDER 1744 (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society) (Con)

A David Atkins married a Hannah Holder in Cheltenham, during the September quarter of 1842. David Atkins, born March 31, 1822, Cirencester, son of Joseph Atkins and Ann Haines and brother of Henry Edwin Atkins.

LEWIS 1775 (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Middle name, and therefore likely family name, for third son of Joseph Atkins and Ann Haines, Joseph Lewis Atkins, born January 18, 1814 and brother to Henry Edwin Atkins.

WEBB/WEBSTER 1590-present (Aust, England)

Middle name, and therefore likely family name, of fourth son born to Joseph Atkins and Ann Haines, James Webb Atkins, born Cirencester, August 14, 1816 and brother to Henry Edwin Atkins.

PRESTON (Bedfordshire) (Gypsies Passing Through) (Lodger with Joseph and Ann Atkins)

Surname of a possible lodger living with Joseph and Ann Haines Atkins, 1841 census. Joseph Preston, 30, painter, born 1811.  Joseph is 50, Ann, 50, and their children at home are David, 15, Marian (Mary Ann), 14 and Eliza, 10. NB: Preston may be a neighbour and not a lodger but people often lived close to or alongside those they knew so a tenuous link remains even if he is not a lodger.

PAYNE (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

From the Gloucestershire researcher: In Slater’s Directory of 1850, under Cirencester,  the researcher found one entry that may be of interest – Payne & Atkins, of Castle Street, who were listed as milliners and straw bonnet makers.  This may be a female enterprise, perhaps one of the sisters listed above in partnership with another person?

Name connections for Edwin Atkins, convict.

WALKER (Ref Journal of the Celtic Traveller History Society)

William and Amy Walker were charged with Edwin Atkins for sheep stealing. William was acquitted and Amy and Edwin sentenced to transportation after a death sentence was commuted. One presumes they were friends.

Photo: Gloucestershire in the early 19th century.


There is no Mashford, Cann or Labbett but there is:

MAY 1746 (Gypsies Passing Through),

Elizabeth's brother was George May Mashford although remembering the Mashfords are from Devon.

MCLEOD ( Scotland Census 1871) (Scource Mary McKay Genealogy)

Edward Atkins' first wife was Hannah McLeod.

McLEOD 1891 (London) (See Robert Dawson ARITF)

NEWBERRY/NEWBURY/NEWBY (Gypsies Passing Through)

Surname for a daughter of Edward Atkins and Hannah McLeod.

MCKINNON (born Scotland) ( Scotland Census 1841-1851)

Surname for a daughter of Edward Atkins and Hannah McLeod.

STACEY (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Surname for a daughter of Edward Atkins and Hannah McLeod.

PARKER 1592 (Ref Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society)

Surname of a witness at the marriage of Edward Atkins and Hannah McLeod.

CUNDELL / CUNDY 1788-1851(int) (Yorkshire) (See Robert Dawson ARITF)

Surname of a witness at marriage of Edward Atkins and Elizabeth Mashford Lewis.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Celtic_Traveller.

This is what the site says about itself:

The (brand new) Celtic Travellers DNA project is primarily for individuals looking for help in identifying the origins of their own direct paternal or maternal line of descent. 

 

The project is primarily for the members and descendants of Irish Travellers, Highland Scottish Travellers, Lowland Scottish Travellers, Fairground Travellers and other Non-Romani travelling families. However if you are Roma or mixed Traveller race you are welcome to join.

You may suspect that you have Celtic Traveller ancestry in your family and not yet have a suitable surname project to join due to many reasons which could include distant surname changes, forced adoptions and forced resettlement.

NB: I think this is relevant in terms of consideration given the many names which connect to the Atkins family.

Scottish and Irish nomads (Celtic Travellers) are more commonly and disrespectfully referred to as Tinkers, Pikeys and Gypos. We are probably distantly related the sedentary Celtic folk, but have split from the general population way back in time with our own proud cultures, languages and unique genetic history still waiting to be told.

Here is some of the earlier material I posted in regard to gypsy connections for the Atkins family.

While doing a search on the Atkins's of Gloucestershire I came across a William Atkins listed as a Hawker on the Romany/Gypsy website. He was aged 25 and listed in the 1841 Census as born in Gloucestershire, no address, Lamb Street, Clifton.

He was born 1816, within nine years of the birth of Edward Atkins depending on which age for him is correct, given differences between the age he put when he married Elizabeth and the age of 84 as recorded on his death notice in 1891.

Interestingly, very interestingly in fact I have found the name Ann Haynes on the same Romany site where I spotted William Atkins. She is listed in the 1881 census of Hawkers born in Gloucestershire: Ann Haynes, Bc 1801 St George, Gloucestershire, England Inmate Stapleton, Gloucestershire.  This Ann Haynes is not likely to be the one marrying Joseph Atkins because she is too young, but there is every chance she is a relation.

The Haynes' are listed as gypsy basketmakers and the Stapleton Workhouse, which I believe is close to both Clifton and Cirencester, is likely to be where Ann was an inmate.

In an extract from The National Gazetteer, 1868:
"STAPLETON, a parish in the hundred of Barton Regis, county Gloucester, 2 miles N.E. of Bristol, of which it may be considered a suburb. The Midland and the Bristol and South Wales Union railways have stations here. This parish is situated at the north-western angle of the South Gloucester and Somerset coalfield, and is bounded on the N. by a range of hills 200 feet high, to which elevation the strata of the coal measures has been lifted up by a mass of millstone grit. It is traversed by the river Frome flowing through a glen, and contains the villages of Stapleton and Fishponds. The hat manufacture formerly carried on has declined, but there is a flock manufactory, coal mines, and stone quarries. The palace of the Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol, the diocesan training institution for National schoolmistresses, and the Clifton union workhouse, &c., are in this parish.

In a 1797 report on the poor in England, Stapleton was thus described:

STAPLETON lies about two miles north-east of Bristol, and has 1,377 inhabitants. There are 254 houses; 84 pay tax, 170 exempt so that it appears there is very little more than 5 and two-fifth persons to a house. Day labourers earn from 8s. to 10s. 6d. a week. Provisions are purchased in Bristol market. Farms are small and chiefly pasture. The common was enclosed in 1783, when half an acre was allotted to each cottage. There is now no wasteland, and labourers find great difficulty in getting habitations, and when anxious to set up house have to migrate to other parishes. Land lets at from £2 to £3 an acre. Some of the Poor are maintained at home, some in the Workhouse. Bill of fare in the Workhouse—Breakfast—Sunday—6 oz. of bread, 1oz. butter, and beer; other days—Broth. Dinner—Sunday—Boiled beef, potatoes, bread and small beer; Monday, Wednesday, Saturday—6oz. of bread, ½oz. of cheese, and beer; Tuesday, Thursday—Boiled beef, potatoes or carrots, and beer ; Friday—Milk broth or rice. Supper, every day—Bread and cheese and small beer. The children's allowance of bread at dinner is 4oz. On Christmas Day and Whit Sunday the dinner is baked veal and plum pudding. There are in the house 3 men, 5 women, 5 children. In 1795, 5 men, 7 women, 8 children. The children are employed in spinning flax and hemp, but their earnings are very inconsiderable. 




In the 1841 census of Gloucestershire Hawkers there is:

Charles Haynes aged 50 born circa 1791 Licensed Hawker born in county No address Northleach Northleach & Stow On The Wold
So along with a William Atkins, gypsy hawker of no address, we have a Charles Haynes, gypsy hawker, of no address.

In the 1881 census of Bristol City Workhouse, Stapleton inmates are listed:

Elizabeth ATKINS

U

57

F

Inmate

Domestic Servant

Bristol

Harriet HAYNES	U	56	F	Inmate	Domestic Servant	Imbecile

In the late 19th century imbecile was a term used to describe the uneducated, feeble-minded and mentally ill. If Harriet had worked as a domestic servant then she could not have been too much of an imbecile, but perhaps after the drudgery of probably fifty years of virtual slavery, she had become a tad feeble-minded.

Ann Haynes is not listed here but she may well have been at the Clifton Union Workhouse and with a bit more searching, there she is at Barton Regis Union Workhouse, in the Clifton section:

Ann HAYNES

W

80

F

Inmate

Hawker

St George, Gloucester

The Clifton Workhouse was known as Barton Regis from 1877 and has this excerpt regarding it in the 1777 parliamentary report:


The Poor of the out-parishes of St. Philip and Jacob, and of St. George, which contain about 16,000 inhabitants, are partly relieved at home, and partly in a Workhouse in which there are at present 85 persons. The number of out Poor is about 200. It is singular that here it is thought most beneficial to the parishes to maintain the Poor at home, and that the Poor want to get into the house. It is pleasantly situated and appears to be clean and comfortable. There are 2, or 3 beds of flocks and feathers in each room. Bill of fare in the Workhouse: Breakfast—every day, milk pottage. Dinner—Sunday, Thursday, bread and cheese; Monday, rice milk; Tuesday, Friday, pease soup; Wednesday and Saturday, pickled beef and vegetables. Supper—every day, bread and cheese or butter. 3 pints of beer are allowed to each person on meat days, and a quart on other days. One lb. of bread is given out daily and 9oz. of cheese every week. Once a month 12lbs. of butter are distributed, and at particular seasons better fare is provided, more especially for the sick.

And some information on Irish Traveller history.

Irish Travellers sometimes are referred to as ‘Minceir’ or

‘Pavees in their own language known as Cant/Gammon,

the survival of this language is a testament to the

resilience of this minority group in the face of numerous

pressures and threats.

Martin Collins, Irish Traveller and Assistant Director of Pavee Point, has said

"Research demonstrates that we are a people with a unique and turbulent history and

underlines how resilient we have had to be to survive”

(Independent on Sunday, 27/5/2005).

It is difficult to identify the exact origins of Irish Travellers. Some claim they are the

descendants of the dispossessed from the war with Cromwell in the seventeenth

century or the ‘Great Famine’ in Ireland in the mid nineteenth century. However there

are some who contest such claims and propose much earlier origins. O’Riain claims

there is evidence which points to the existence of nomadic groups in Ireland as early

as the fifth century AD and by the twelth century the name Tynkler or Tynker is said

to have been given to a group of nomads who had maintained a separate identity,

social organisation and dialect (O’Riain, Solidarity with Travellers, 2000, 8).

Robbie McVeigh has stated:

Irish Travellers have their roots in a Celtic (and possibly pre Celtic) nomadic

population in Ireland. They are very definitely not Roma (or Gypsies), neither are

Travellers the product of ‘An Gorta Mor’ (the Great Hunger) of 1843 - 50. While the

original Irish nomadic population may have been supplemented at various times in

Irish history by dispossessed labourers and other marginalised people, there was

clearly a distinct Traveller population before the famine” (McVeigh, Third World on

Our Doorstep, 1997)

Like many poor and excluded groups in Ireland Irish Travellers have emigrated in

order to secure better material conditions. One of the first reports of Irish Travellers

in Britain appeared in 1850 (Kenrick and Bakewell, On the Verge: The Gypsies of

England, 1990, 10).

http://www.irishtraveller.org.uk/find-out-about-irish-travellers/problems

Irish travellers, long derided as anti-social itinerants rather than "true" Gypsies, are an ancient people in their own right, researchers say. Irish travellers, long derided as anti-social itinerants rather than "true" Gypsies, are an ancient people in their own right, researchers say.

Academics claim they could even be the last surviving remnants of a pre-Celtic Ireland, with their own distinctive language called "Cant" or "Gammon". Commonly known as "tinkers" because of their tin-smithing past, Irish travelling families have never enjoyed the romantic associations of Romany Gypsies.


Research by an Irish socio-linguist, Dr Alice Binchy, suggests that more than half the surviving Cant/Gammon lexicon may be derived from a long-lost language spoken in Ireland before the Celts arrived. "A partially pre-Celtic origin would have substantial implications for the way we look not only at traveller history, but at early Irish history as a whole," said Dr Binchy, a delegate at a conference of linguists, historians and anthropologists to be held at the University of Limerick.

Pre-Celtic Ireland started to disappear 3,000 years ago. Irish travellers may first have been recorded in the 13th and 14th centuries. Surnames suggest that many are descended from medieval poets - the Irish bards. Others were metal workers. Significantly, both were separate "castes".

It is probable that numbers greatly increased in the late 16th and early to mid-17th centuries, when English occupation forces dispossessed the Irish aristocracy. At some stage, the newly enlarged community appears to have begun to develop a secret form of verbal communication. Many academics - though not all - believe that words were altered, with syllables inverted and letters transposed, to make it impossible for enemies to understand.

The language remains a source of dispute, with some scholars arguing that any link with the pre-Celtic era is unlikely. But most accept that travellers date back at least to medieval or Tudor times.

The Scottish Celtic Travellers would have originated in Ireland because the Scots are believed to have come from Ireland originally.

An Odyssean quest to find out more about the McLeods....

There is an Odyssean quality to ancestry research where it is sometimes the journey which matters more than the destination and the twists and detours and 'wrong' turns and unexpected 'ports' often bring unexpected information or insights.

Having finally connected Hannah's Edward with Elizabeth's Edward we now know that we are related to the Newberry, Pole, Puddy and McKinnon families and while we still know very little about Hannah, we can see, through some of the photographs, perhaps a glimpse of her image.

We still have not confirmed if our Edward is also the convict Edwin Atkins who 'appeared' earlier and who also was from Gloucestershire and a blacksmith and a shepherd and who, from his convict description, looked very much like the image of Edward which we have - a photograph taken with his two daughters by Elizabeth, Mary (Ross), my great-grandmother and Elizabeth (Cox).

But finding a death record for Hannah has proved elusive although it took a long time to find a record for Edward's death and as the Australian National Library's Trove site continues to add new information, it may only be a matter of time. Until then the search continues and that led us to a discussion regarding other families with the Mcleod name, living in Clare at the time Hannah arrived in South Australia.

Kylie wrote: 
  

MCLEOD Hannah, Daniel arrived in SA 1840-05-14 aboard Eliza (1) from London 1840-01-04 [Source:2,7(also E ATKINS),20,41]

N.B. There is an E. Atkins also listed on this ship and it may be our E. Atkins or it may be not. It is also possible that this is the E. Atkins, convict from Gloucestershire, who was found previously although Edwin Atkins convict from Gloucestershire, arrived Australia 1830 and completed his seven year sentence, has yet to be confirmed as our Edward Atkins although it is perfectly possible that he returned to England in 1837 and sailed back to Australia a free man, three years later.

22/2/2013 Later information makes it clear there was not an E. Atkins on The Eliza. This error occurs because the E.Atkins listed along with Hannah is there because a researcher has placed the name as her husband. This inclusion is not clarified, hence seeing (E.Atkins) next to Hannah and Daniel McLeod's names infers he was also on the ship, perhaps as crew. This was not the case.

Photo: The Florentia on which the convict Edwin Atkins from Gloucestershire sailed to Australia in 1830 to begin a seven year sentence for 'sheep stealing.'

MCLEOD Henry Edward, Anna (wife) arrived in SA by 1845-12-31 [Source:7]

Child Mary Jane

MCKINNON Donald, Mary MCLEOD arrived in SA 1840-03-10 aboard Tomatin from Greenock [Source:2,7,10,21,29]

The first one of course you recognise but the second one interesting because of the Henry Edward Mcleod.  Could this be where the Henry Edward name comes from?

From the SA Biographical index – McLeod Henry Ed arr: by 1845 res: Clare m: Anna Ch: Mary Jane (1845-)  - They  did live in the Clare area.

Photo: Jane Atkins McKinnon, daughter of Edward and Hannah Mcleod, with her grand-daughter Joan, circa. 1920.

Jane Atkins Marriage record from SAGHS index John McKinnon married Jane Atkins 25-12-1867 groom age 24 bride 22 Fathers Donald McKinnon and Edward Atkins at Presbyterian Church Clare dist Clare 73/202

From the SA biographical Index -McKinnon Donald arr: by 1841 Rel: Presb m: Mary nee McLeod Ch: Lauchlin Alexr (1841-), John (1844-)    -

According to one tree online they died at Hill river station near clare and owned land at Amargh – one of the witnesses at Edward and Elizabeth’s wedding came from Amargh.  This tree has the connection to the Donald McKinnon and Jane Atkins.

These might be two families to have a good look at.  They were both in the area at the right time and one has a family connection. 

Donald married Mary Mcleod, daughter of Malcolm McLeod and Sarah Anderson, on 9 Apr 1834 in Tiree And Coll, Argyll, Scotland. Mary was born on 30 Jan 1815 in Gorbals, County Of Lanark, Scotland, died on 30 Nov 1899 in Clare SA at age 84, and was buried on 1 Dec 1899 in Clare SA. She died at Hill River Station.

Donald and wife Mary, with eldest son Archibald, left Greenock on 31st October 1839, arriving at Pt Adelaide on 11th March 1840 in the 428 tonne Barque "Tomatin".Donald Mckinnon, a farmer, and Mary McLeod settled in Clare in the north of South Australia where they leased land (recorded in 1853) and became farmers.

Later two more sons were born, Lochlan (Lauchlin) Alexander in 1842, and John in 1844. The three brothers lived in Clare with their parents and, when old enough, went to work as labourers/shepherds on the large property near Clare called Hill River Station.

Photo: Clara McKinnon, daughter of Jane Atkins McKinnon, circa. 1906 aged twenty.
 
The youngest son of Donald and Mary married Jane Atkins, daughter of Edward Atkins and Unknown, on 25 Dec 1867 in Presbyterian Church, Clare SA. , died on 21 Nov 1923 in Clare SA at age 78, and was buried on 22 Nov 1923 in Clare SA. )

NB: This comes from the McKinnon ancestry site which also contains an error regarding Jane's birth, saying it was in England. Given that the researchers did not know her mother's name it is possible that the Jane Atkins they recorded as being born in England was another Jane Atkins and not our relative.

All of Jane's children were born at Hill River Station, Clare. I remember when I wrote up the McKinnon/Atkins material I found it interesting because John McKinnon was the ancestor of an aunt of mine, Charlotte McKinnon, who married my uncle, my father's half-brother, Laurie Harold Simper. The McKinnon's have actually done quite a bit of work on their ancestry and Auntie Lottie was instrumental in the process up until she died.

The Hill River Run was originally taken up in 1841 by William Robinson. The original part of the homestead was built of local sandstone in 1849 with a slate roof (brought to Australia as ballast on the sailing ship).

About 1855 Robinson sold the leasehold run to C.B. Fisher for the sum of 40,000 pounds ($80,000) with 40,000 sheep included offshears.

During the period that Fisher held the lease (from 1855 to 1876) he converted 60,000 acres    into freehold at a cost of $180,000 and in addition spent $60,000 on improvements such as subdivisions, fencing and general land cleared for wheat production. In 1875, 50,000 sheep were shorn, while 4,250 acres were sown to wheat annually in addition to 1,800 acres of new

land turned up for fallow - one wheat field was three miles long.

Photo: A bullock team in the 19th century.

The ploughing was carried out by 34 horse teams, each drawing a double-farrow plough and covering from two to three acres per day. Six 22-foot broadcasting machines sowed 40 acres of wheat per day and harvesting was by 37 strippers, each drawn by a 4 horse team. Some 600working horses were needed for these operations, requiring over 800 tons of hay to be kept as feed for them annually.

As many as 200 farm labourers were employed during harvest, wages varying from 16/- to 1 pound per week.  In those days when farming was undertaken on such a grand scale, it is believed that Hill River was the largest farm in South Australia, if not the largest in Australia. Families at Hill River were big ones; 12 and 13 children were not at all out of the ordinary.http://mackinnonfamily.tripod.com/mackinnon.htm

Photo: Bundaleer Station 1870.

So Donald's wife Mary McLeod, Hannah McLeod Atkins and Henry Edward McLeod all ended up in the Clare Valley between 1840 and 1845.

McKinnon/McLeod arrived March 1840; Hannah and Daniel McLeod two months later, May 1840 and Henry Edward Mcleod by 1845.

Hannah married Edward Atkins in Adelaide January 3, 1843 in Adelaide although he lists his place of residence as Hutt River, which is Clare Valley. Where was Hannah for two and a half years between her arrival and her marriage? She may have been working in Adelaide but the fact that she married a man who lived in the Clare Valley suggests she was living and perhaps working there.

It was while pondering connections to the McKinnon/McLeod families that we recalled Hannah McLeod came not from Scotland but from Ireland and so it was highly unlikely that she would be a relative of Mary McLeod McKinnon. She might however be related to the Henry Edward McLeod who arrived in 1845. But this is too early for her to be in the Clare Valley because she had relations with whom she could stay.

“Daniel McLeod, Servant, made application to come to SA 3/12/1839,

From Charleville, 18 years old. Hannah McLeod, Worker women made

application 3/12/1839, 16 years old from Charleville.” Both were

single because Hannah was only 16 years old.

If Hannah was 16 years old in 1839 then she was born c1823 and would

have been c20 years of age when she married Edward Atkins in 1843. It

would also mean that if she died sometime after the birth of Emily Puddy nee Atkins in 1854 and before the marriage of Elizabeth Mashford and Edward Atkins in 1857 Hannah would have been around c34 c36 years when she died.

http://roslyn-ross.blogspot.com/2012/05/there-is-no-real-news-but-research.html

This means Hannah was Irish and while it does not preclude a link with the McKinnon/McLeods in a familial sense, it makes it a bit more of a stretch. Nothing is impossible however and the Scottish McLeod's may well have been related to the Irish Mcleod's. It is assumption that Hannah's family had been in Ireland for a long time. They may well have been recent arrivals who kept in contact with family back in Scotland.

Henry Edward McLeod, however, if he also came from Ireland would then be a closer fit. Having said that, the McKinnon/Mcleod's were of the same social standing as Edward Atkins and Hannah Mcleod with Edward also working as a farmer in the Clare Valley (Hutt River) as was Donald McKinnon, and Edward later working as a shepherd on big sheep runs, as did Donald's sons, one of whom married Edward and Hannah's daughter Jane, and if we have the correct Daniel, as did Hannah's 'brother' Daniel, who emigrated to South Australia with her.

And Luke replied:

Yes I knew about the record of Daniel and Hannah’s arrival upon the ship Eliza. I went to the State Library and saw the record. She applied to come to South Australia on the 3/12/1839 when she was 16 years old.[1] She declared her trade to be a worker woman and she was from Charleville.[2] At the same time she applied to come to South Australia a Daniel McLeod also applied to immigrate to South Australia. He declared himself to be a servant, 18 years old and also was from Charleville.[3] The fact that Hannah McLeod was only 16 years old is an indication she may not have been married and thus Daniel McLeod may well have been her brother or some other close member of her family. Daniel McLeod would have been born around c1821. I have unable to find a record of a marriage or death of a Daniel McLeod which would fit with the same record of a Daniel McLeod who was born c 1821.  I have never found a Charleville in England, but did in Ireland.

If she was Irish then research into her place of origins is problematic. England had control of Ireland in the 1800s, and hence control over all the Irish Census and other records. However, all the Irish census record from 1841 and every 10 years were destroyed along with other records. During the Irish rebellion in 1922 all the records were kept in the Dublin Town Hall and that was burnt along with all the records. That is why Irish family history is so difficult because people today have to rely upon Catholic Church records. The Catholic Church kept good records, but you have to know the exact parish a person belong to. If Hannah was Irish and we do not know her father’s last name or the parish she came from in Ireland it will be like finding a needle in the haystack

I have had a quick look at TROVE for Daniel McLeod and there is nothing except a Daniel McLeod in a court case at Mt Remarkable in 1872,  but there is no age for him so I do not know if he was the brother of Hannah who was born c1821.

 

---

[1] Register of Emigrant Labourers 1836-1840 Pike Index South Australia State Library

[2] Register of Emigrant Labourers 1836-1840 Pike Index South Australia State Library

[3] Register of Emigrant Labourers 1836-1840 Pike Index South Australia State Library

And Kylie replied:

 

From the SA Biographical Index

McLEOD Daniel Par: Donald b: c1826 d: 21.5.1875 Woolundunga SA  Occ Shepherd, Labourer res: nr Pt Augusta, Saltia, Melrose rel: Presb

m: (1/2) 6.3.1862 Saltia SA Mrs? Maria MALONEY nee SIMMONS par: Thos b: 1834 d: 29.1.1864 Baroota SA ch: Danl (1864-1864)

m: (2/2) Louisa nee Domeyer ch: Wm (1870-), Mgt Ann (1872-), Christyannah (1873-), Wm Danl (1875-)

I had a look at the marriage records and he was 33 when he first married and the second marriage (which took place 5 Apr 1869), he was 35.  It is a possible.

With no Scottish Charleville I think we have to assume the Mcleod's are Irish. Apparently a lot of Mcleods fled to Ireland in the 17th century when they ended up on the wrong side of a rebellion. Many of them changed their name to McLure.

While chasing McLeod's is going off at something of a tangent it is often these diversions which bear fruit. Kylie has been invaluable as a researcher and she is connected via her husband who is a descendant of Mary Mashford Lewis's first child, George Lewis.


So who knows what a McLeod family member might turn up.